Splurge wrote: ...reptile that is indigenous to South Africa (ex: Baboon Spider)...reptile not indigenous to South Africa (Ex: Mexican Fireleg)...

Reptiles?:huh:

Nero wrote:

Splurge wrote: ...reptile that is indigenous to South Africa (ex: Baboon Spider)...reptile not indigenous to South Africa (Ex: Mexican Fireleg)...

Reptiles?:huh:

My mistake, reptiles and arachnids Unless it was just reptiles. Lol. I have the concentration level of a gummi bear when people are talking.

From the time I've started this post, I've come accross a couple of related ones, one from about 5 months back that was quite a duzie...

As most I also have, and formed, my own opinions about this. One specific one that is very controvertial and will very likely give me loads of flack so perhaps I need to leave that for another day?

For one I agree with 'commercializing' the tarantula trade, i.e. under permit breed rare species in high demand and flood the trade. I however want to add an additional permit requirement that a certain percentage of the broods be released into the wild. Our local species locally and exotics to their country of origin (face it, not just ours are being endangered, what's exotic to us is a local endangered species somewhere else in the world).

ewertb wrote: From the time I've started this post, I've come accross a couple of related ones, one from about 5 months back that was quite a duzie...

As most I also have, and formed, my own opinions about this. One specific one that is very controvertial and will very likely give me loads of flack so perhaps I need to leave that for another day?

For one I agree with 'commercializing' the tarantula trade, i.e. under permit breed rare species in high demand and flood the trade. I however want to add an additional permit requirement that a certain percentage of the broods be released into the wild. Our local species locally and exotics to their country of origin (face it, not just ours are being endangered, what's exotic to us is a local endangered species somewhere else in the world).

Yeah, there have been a few entertaining one's.
If you search there are some awesome fights on the subject.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture (Think Im sounding like a stuck record with this statement recently?)
What does nature conservation and sars have to gain from legalising exotic species?
If sars only knew how much money was changing hands without them getting a cut of it, they would quickly try and ban the "illegal" trade.

There are a few problems regarding releasing captive bred species back into the wild.
These have all been mentioned in previous threads, but I have 10 minutes to kill.

Firstly, If you have a look at how many people need identifications on spiders, how will you know you are releasing the correct species in the right place?
Secondly, certain species like Ceratogyrus darlingi have a very wide range. From KZN to Northern Botswana. With DNA work eventually happening with spiders, you might find that the spider from Bots and the one from KZN could become 2 species eventually (Just using this as an example). If I mate a male darlingi from KZN with a female from Botswana and get slings from it, where do I release the babies? What if I don't know where they are from in the first place anyway?
Thirdly, we often mate spiders at different times compared to the wild. We could potentially release hybrids or weaker specimens into areas earlier than what the natural population would normally breed. These spiders would have more time to grow and possibly outcompete the wild population.
Fourthly, diseases in captivity possibly not found in the wild?

The list is endless.

There are major problems with this theory therefore.

Just as a last point, most of the baboon spider species in SA are not endangered in the wild as a result of the permit system, so there is no reason to release captive spiders anyway IMO.

Firstly, If you have a look at how many people need identifications on spiders, how will you know you are releasing the correct species in the right place?

I know in our country it's a far cry but hopefully the guys getting and the guys issuing and regulating the permits for this breed and release excercise will be ones with the knowhow to do so...

Secondly, certain species like Ceratogyrus darlingi have a very wide range. From KZN to Northern Botswana. With DNA work eventually happening with spiders, you might find that the spider from Bots and the one from KZN could become 2 species eventually (Just using this as an example). If I mate a male darlingi from KZN with a female from Botswana and get slings from it, where do I release the babies? What if I don't know where they are from in the first place anyway?

Seems like a very furry statement... If these were 2 different species, wouldn't there be 'hybrids' already where there ranges cross? You won't even have to breed them yourself then.

Thirdly, we often mate spiders at different times compared to the wild. We could potentially release hybrids or weaker specimens into areas earlier than what the natural population would normally breed. These spiders would have more time to grow and possibly outcompete the wild population.
Fourthly, diseases in captivity possibly not found in the wild?

Isn't this then the time to start learning more about the natural characteristics of the creatures we keep instead of just breeding because we want to... That to me is the biggest issue and the core to the problem! Not us, the tarantula keepers, nor the conservationists actually know enough about tarantulas to be allowed to shout at each other. We blame conservation for not knowing what they're doing, but how can we say we do if we don't even know when to breed our T's to fall inline with their natural breeding?

ewertb wrote: I know in our country it's a far cry but hopefully the guys getting and the guys issuing and regulating the permits for this breed and release excercise will be ones with the knowhow to do so...


Seems like a very furry statement... If these were 2 different species, wouldn't there be 'hybrids' already where there ranges cross? You won't even have to breed them yourself then.


Isn't this then the time to start learning more about the natural characteristics of the creatures we keep instead of just breeding because we want to... That to me is the biggest issue and the core to the problem! Not us, the tarantula keepers, nor the conservationists actually know enough about tarantulas to be allowed to shout at each other. We blame conservation for not knowing what they're doing, but how can we say we do if we don't even know when to breed our T's to fall inline with their natural breeding?

On the first point. You often need dead spiders or spermatecae shapes to identify the spider correctly. There is no one in the world that will be able to identify all the species of spider accurately that I know of. Our nature conservation has no need to try and train someone, not that I think it is even possible. Basically its easier said than done.

Second point. Sorry that was just an example I thought of off the top of my head to explain the wide ranges. But still leaves you with the problem on where to release the babies if you don't know where the adults came from? Until we have someone willing to do DNA analysis, we won't know, so why mess it up before we get that done.

Third point. Spiders breed when they feel comfortable to. I have just gotten an eggcase from a regalis in the middle of winter, where as they would normally breed in the summer. She thought conditions were ideal, so decided to drop.
As for locals, unless you keep the spider in a tank outside in the garden (Which would probably have differences to living outside the tank anyway) in the exact same place that it is found, it will probably not drop at the same time as the wild spiders. You might as well just leave the spider in the wild in this case.

All of these points are pretty much null and void anyway, because we don't need natural populations to be boosted with captive bred anyway.

Another problem would be, what about carrying capacities in the areas that you are releasing the captive bred spiders in? Population explosion of the correct species (Ignoring the fact that it could be the incorrect species released in the first place) in an area could be devastating to other animals, plants, etc in that environment.

Basically, there is no need to release captive bred spiders and there are just 100 times more negatives than positives to doing this.