cascade wrote: Straight off the bat It is a bad Idea.
The strain on the spider, Risk factor, not practical in the mating game. ...

What strain on what spider? Keeping in mind that spiders in general and tarantulas specifically have a very wide tolerance for temperature , there is little chance that some chilling will have any significant effect, good or bad. Someone has to try this to tell for sure, however.

cascade wrote: ... If you think how ruff mating can get and some time the force of the male used, ...

My experience has been that in 999 times out of thousand, it's the female who attacks the male. While I've heard of a few instances where the male attacked the female, these are exceedingly rare. And, if he does get a little rough, the usual outcome is pregnancy!

cascade wrote: ... now you add a frozen tarantula ...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Nobody's talking about freezing here! Just a gentle cool down to slow the female's reaction time a little.

cascade wrote: ... that can barely move and you add a male that has got one thing in mind, the female wont be able to either stop he's advance or control him. ...

But, that's the whole point!

cascade wrote: ... She also need to be able to bend, if she is frozen she can't allow that to happen. ...

Wrong! Assuming we substitute "a little cool" for "frozen," that only means that she can't resist his advances as effectively. It has nothing to do with her becoming stiff or rigid. Her muscles don't seize up. The only result is that her ability to contract her muscles is slightly diminished. If anything, she goes very slightly limp.

cascade wrote: ... Here is another when a spider is molting the spider is at its most vulnerable state, a frozen spider will be in the same category. ...

This doesn't make any sense. Can you explain?

cascade wrote: ... If you have seen a cold spider they basically are dead, I have had a 10cm B. vagans and 3 other spiders that wore frozen as the heating pad I was using failed in the middle of winter, they wore out in the open part of the "Spider House" which basically gets as cold as the outside temps even colder. ...

No, no, no! Slightly cool. As in 15 or 20 minutes in the frig. Not frozen! Not even close!

cascade wrote: ... Normally, mating of spider happen in summer early spring, ...

No, no, no! Unless the tarantulas in SA are operating in reverse mode because they're on the other side of the planet! :laugh:

The majority of tarantulas that live in climates where there is a distinct difference in temperature between summer and winter will mate in the fall. The female overwinters with his sperm stored in her spermathecae. She lays eggs and builds an eggsac in spring.

There are a few maverick species that mate in spring, but they are the distinct exception. Even Dr. Bearg in his book, The Tarantula (1958), notes that if matings occur in the spring they're almost always nonproductive.

The major exception are those species from the lowland forests in the tropics where there is little or no change in temperature from season to season. In that case, their molting/mating/egg laying cycle is more often driven by differences between the rainy and dry seasons, if present. And, there are some of these lowland, tropical species that'll breed anytime during the year. I think the Avicularia are among these.

cascade wrote: ... it normally happens at warmer temps ...

It normally happens in the evening while temperatures are still "warm," but cooling. And because breeding occurs in the fall, it can get quite cool overnight. And, the breeding times usually last until late night or early morning when they're interrupted by sunrise and exposure to predators. (It's hard to concentrate on making babies when you're being chased by something with big teeth!) As with most other aspects of tarantula life, temperature is pretty much irrelevant until it reaches extremes.

cascade wrote: ... so now putting a spider into the freezer is risky at best, you have to time it right or you can kill your spider! ...

Where did you get the "freezer" thing from? Did I miss something here?

cascade wrote: ... I would say try it with something like a Curly and see what happens to it!
I have 2 Mature males. ...

Ah! Finally a ray of light! That's what I've been promoting all along. Congratulations!

:happy:

@ Uncle Stan:


Thanks for keeping an open mind and correcting mistakes

I have the feeling that Tarantula Keepers are scared of new things. Just because something has been done in a set way for a long time, doesn't mean it's the only way. My idea has plenty of advantages, now if people keep an open mind, they too can see the advantages. There are probably some potential hazards but that is what extensive testing is for.

@ Cascade: Sorry, couldn't resist, don't take it personally



But seriously though. Thanks for doing the test. It gives me some hope that the Idea could be valid.

F1refly wrote:
@ Cascade: Sorry, couldn't resist, don't take it personally

Attachment tumblr_m4k2hxSdKD1rsfld3o1_5001.gif not found

F1, then you wonder why people stick it to you so often? :eyepoke: :blink: :drunk: :thumbsup: :tongue:

So, here is another test.

This is my point, how long do you have to put that "female" in the Fridge to cool her down enough so the male is not at risk and she is pliable enough for the male to work with her!?
Since that what you have suggested with your Idea. :thumbsup: :swaet:

So before I put the female in the fridge, I stuck the male in with to see the reaction.


Sorry for picture qaulity :whistle:


So I put this female into the fridge at 16:55 removed her at 17:30.
Here is the female before the fridge.


And then put the male in with her and she still gave the male a go.





So that was 35mins, I guess I would have to go longer on this female as it looks like she is a bit stronger than the males! And again that is my point, How long is long enough? 10mins 20 mins, 45mins or 2 hours.
There is going to be a science with this.

And as Stan Wrote :

cascade wrote:

Straight off the bat It is a bad Idea.
The strain on the spider, Risk factor, not practical in the mating game. ...

What strain on what spider? Keeping in mind that spiders in general and tarantulas specifically have a very wide tolerance for temperature, there is little chance that some chilling will have any significant effect, good or bad. Someone has to try this to tell for sure, however.

So you would have to first do a test and thumb suck a time you think is good for the female to be cooled down enough for her not to be to much of a threat to male!


And again this is my feelings on the matter. If you wont to try breeding like this then cool, go a head.
But there is more to it than just sticking the spider in a fridge and getting a good result from it.

Someone with GBB please give this method a go and see the result you get out of it.

Ceratogyrus wrote:

F1refly wrote: Im willing to try when my female curly matures. Got a male so hopefully my female moults before he died. If experimentation didnt happen we would all still be cave men.

Ok, so it's all good and well that you want to experiment, but there is no control situation in this experiment of yours, so the results won't mean much.
How would you know if the female has reacted any different to not being cooled?
Another female of the same species could react very differently. Even if you decide to mate the same spider before/after the cooling, her attitude could differ greatly if she has been successfully mated or a number of other factors that we might not even know about.
I just think that any "results" from this experiment won't do anything to change my mind.

My stance is still the same.

WARNING: THIS POSTING CONTAINS A RISQUE JOKE. IF YOU'RE OFFENDED BY THIS SORT OF THING, PLEASE MOVE TO THE NEXT POSTING NOW.

cascade wrote: ... you have to control the temp and the spider so the spider will still be able to function in the mating process, if the spider is cooled down to much the spider will not be able to do the tapping and the mating dance! ...

No, no, no! We're cooling the female, not the male!

cascade wrote: ... The female will be to unstable on her feet the male will just shunt her around causing her to fall, which will and could cause the female to get hurt and freak out cause what is going on here?! ...

This is highly temperature dependent. Either do not cool the female down to the point where this happens, or wait until she warms up a bit before introducing the male.

cascade wrote: ... And another thing a cold spider goes and sits closure tot he ground and curls it self up, it does not have that much movement to extend, limited movement yet another problem, how does a male lif a female that does not wont to be left or helps the male in the concept!? ...

On many occasions I have mated tarantulas wherein the female just stood there. The male was still more than capable of lifting her, performing the insertion, then escaping before she could catch him.
____________________________________________________________________
DISORDER IN THE COURTS:

ATTORNEY: Are you sexually active?
WITNESS (FEMALE): No, I just lie there.
____________________________________________________________________

cascade wrote: ... And again, the mating of a spider does not just happen it can take 10mins to days for a insert. ...

COURTING may take days with difficult species, but one of the goals of cooling the female may be to eliminate the necessity for such lengthy courting. MATING (lift, insert, disengage, run like H****) usually only requires a few moments. Would cooling the female slow the mating process down, or speed it up? Or, allow the male to make several insertions instead of a quick stab and run? We won't know until we test it.

cascade wrote: ... Some females need to be courted before they give in!? ...

Which is an important point. We would hope that cooling her down will reduce or eliminate a lengthy courting period.

cascade wrote: ... Spiders have been Mating for 100ds of years without fridges in the picture. ...

This may not be entirely true. I will do no more than mention the role that long term, seasonal cooling may play in breeding tarantulas, and the fact that we still don't know enough about this aspect of their reproduction.

But, as far as I know, no one has ever considered the role of temporary, short term cooling in their breeding. Consider for a moment that most tarantulas breed in the evening and in the fall. Thus, while they are at their sexual apex, it's steadily getting cooler and cooler out there. And, they will mate anytime during the night until near dawn when the threat of predators becomes significant. (It's hard to concentrate on making babies when you're running from something with big teeth!) That coincidentally is the time when it's coldest! It could well be that we'd have better success if we kept them cooler instead of warmer! We're not keeping little, expensive, fragile, tropical fish here. These are spiders, and they're survivors!

Maybe we're missing something important here, and we'll never realize it unless we make the tough choices and do a little experimenting.

cascade wrote: ... I took two Mature Male curlies.

Test started with the temps messured in the spiders containers, which was 17.8⁰C at 11:30. ...

Take careful note that this temperature (equivalent to 63° F) is the lower end of what most enthusiasts would consider acceptable for tarantulas. It would have been much better if you had started at somewhere between 22° and 32°C (72° and 90° F). Maybe another run when it gets warmer?

cascade wrote: ... Then temps in fridge and freezer wore taken 11:30 to 12:00.
Fridge = 6.5⁰C
Freezer = -8.1⁰C ...

(Note:
Fridge = 43.7° F
Freezer = 17.4° F
for those of us in those third world countries who still use the old Imperial system. :lol:)

cascade wrote: ... So spider 1 went into fridge at 12:00 to 13:45 (right hand spider)
Spider was in fridge for 1 hour and 45mins @ 6.2⁰C
So I Check on him every 10mins. ...

So far so good.

cascade wrote: ... 10mins no change in spider, legs spread out spider relaxed (if you can say that)
20mins no change in spider, legs spread out spider relaxed
30mins Spider started to stumble
41min starting to sit in one place legs getting closer to body
50mins spider still got movement but very sluggish.
60mins spider has some movement when you touch him
90mins spider has no movement and spider is basically dead.
14:00, spider been out of fridge for 15mins, sitting on the floor by my feet.
Spider is still sitting in one place barely moving. ...

So, you've demonstrated that the appropriate length of time for cooling down from 17.8° C (63° F) to 6.5° C (43.7° F) might be about 20 to 25 minutes. But, you've raised several other questions that need testing:

1. Females have a greater body mass than males. How would this effect the cooling? One might declare that because of her greater thermal mass she would take longer, but I'd still like to test it to be sure. Tarantulas have a fascinating way of violating our most cherished precepts!

2. Males are normally much more hyperactive than females. How would this effect the cooling? Common sense would tell us that this would make the females easier to cool down since the males would be producing some extra heat, however slight, in their pursuit of females. Obviously, this needs testing.

3. How much would changing the starting and ending temperatures effect your results? There are too many possibilities here to make any broad generalizations.

4. Is this true of all species? Or, does it differ markedly from species to species? If it differs, is there any correlation between each species' responses and "normal" conditions in their native habitat? We need more testing!

Heads up, people! I see a PhD thesis in spider physiology in the making here!

cascade wrote: ... Spider 2 went into freezer at 13:00 to 13:35 (left hand spider)
Spider was in freezer for 35mins @ -8.1⁰C

15mins spider had started stumbling when it moved.
30mins Spider was almost dead, no movement what so ever.

Spider was out for 5 mins and started moving again,
15mins of being out of freezer and spider 2 is back to normal, flicking and moving around like nothing happened! ...

Here you've demonstrated some very neat things:

1. A colder environment means that the tarantula will cool down faster. No surprise here, but it's nice to know that it still works according to theory. (See my comment above!)

2. EVEN THOUGH THE TARANTULA WAS COOLED TO THE POINT OF PARALYSIS, IT STILL RECOVERED. "Take that!" all of you who get hysterical when your tarantula gets a little cooler than what your !@#$! care sheets tell you! Or, who have just blown R1000 on some high tech, temperature/humidity, monitoring gizmo! Listen to Uncle Stan! Buy another tarantula instead!

Note that we cannot make any statements or assumptions about the tarantula's emotional or mental state. We don't know if it was fully conscious, unconscious, or comatose. Neither can we tell if it could smell, see, feel a touch or movement, or feel pain. In fact we have no clue if it was in excruciating agony, or heavenly euphoria! All we know for sure is that it couldn't move.

cascade wrote: ... None the less As I said 30 mins will not be enough time for the spider to be calm enough and any longer and you defeat the whole Idea as your spider will not be able to do what she is required to do. ...

By your own experimental data, 25 minutes in the frig was enough to slow him down a little. Whether that will be enough to facilitate mating remains to be seen. But, as I understand the original premise, what we're looking for is a means of slowing the female down just enough so that she'll accept the male without a lengthy courtship, without resistance, and without eating him. It's a lot like buying a girl a few beers! (Oops! Did I really say that?)

cascade wrote: ... 30 mins and the spider will be back to normal in no time flat as soon as she is out the fridge. ...

Amen, Brother!


Enjoy your little, 8-legged Abominable Snow-tarantula! :spider:

:happy: