Ok so I just read word for word what everyone has to say on this topic, all 5 pages worth. I think Monalish is being very ignorant on the matter. If you believe that exotic species are a threat then why do you have them, why do you need to wait till someone says they are illegal because they are a threat before you get rid of them, seems really silly to me. I have allot more to say than just that but for the sake of not getting into an arguement I'll leave it at that.

You are both right. I just hope this ends well. Hmmm.

eish - here we go again.

things NOT to bring up on this website:
anything to do with local species of spiders
legalities around tarantulas.

here are some facts:

I joined The Spider Club of SA in 1990 in Std 4. Scorpions was my thing, so I became friends with Lorenzo Prendini who was in Std 8 at the time (and who now is a WORLD authority on scorpions based in the US). Another scorpion guy around at the time was Jonathan Leeming, who has a book out and working on another. I inherited Lorenzo's collection of scorpions when he went to University, which comprised of scorpions from all around the world, local scorpions including all those species that are now illegal to keep.

At the time, it was known that keeping exotics was illegal - yet the chairman of the club had one of the biggest collections of local and exotic theraphosids - which are now on display at butterfly world, since his passing. A few members had exotics back then - some now in conservation themselves. 20 years later, every bloody petshop has tarantulas, with laws in place and Natcon well aware of the situation. Incidently it wasn't long before I joined the Spider Club that you could actually buy local baboon spiders and it was legit!

I remember as a youngster going on TV holding Doc Filmers tarantulas for shows like 50/50 etc, Natcon well aware of this. Scorpions now illegal on display at events like Yebo Gogga, in the full knowledge of Natcon.

Where am I going with all of this:

Natcon did nothing about local or exotics then, they dont seem to be doing much now (except for the odd law abiding citizen on forums such as this, shouting the fact about certain laws). All we know now is some things are legal and some things are not - so what.

Scorpions I once had in my collection are now illegal - Opisthophthalmus species being one of them, yet my collection originally came from the now world authority on Opisthophthalmus in particular....Dr Lorenzo Prendini.

Same thing happened with exotic reptiles - species were said to be illegal - take a look at all the crap that happened with iguanas coming into the country that the equine industry kicked up - and some "importers / smugglers" getting slapped on the wrist and told not to do it again by Natcon - fat chance of that! what happened in different provinces where different laws applied with regards to certain species? Guys found loopholes in the legislation (of which there are plenty) and still brought them in - have they been removed or banned or taken away? NO! you could probably get a Kamodo Dragon in you had the bucks - even though you can only get them as a presidential gift to a country!

bottom line, as Rayman and a few others said, Natcon is understaffed and have bigger issues to attend to like the Rhino problem, and even there they are failing.

The whole bird thing has been around for years now - they stopped export for a while, now everything is back to normal.

I wouldn't worry, things take time to legislate and even once legislated - who is going to police???- it doesn't happen.

There will always be a market for exotic spiders, reptiles etc. The odd guy will always get away with smuggling something into the country - which in turn will feed the hobby at some or other level.

The law is there to stop over exploitation of species - Natcon doesn't care about the little individual with a few of whatever - it is the guy who is desicrating large areas and flooding petshops with rock scorpions and burrowing scorpions or with baboon spiders - which is what happened as a result of one of two money hungry idiots who screwed it all up for everybody by doing it.

where there is demand, there will be a supply, it wont be stopped - laws are there to curb the demand not kill it - but that just pushes the price up and encourages and underground movement. As it is right now, there are horned baboon spiders on the market - Natcon is aware of it, they are aware of the guy who is selling them and he has been in the "pet" game for decades doing this sort of thing - he has even been taken to court, and HE won.

Incidentally there has only been 1 conviction (to my knowledge) for smuggling into SA and it was for reptiles and that wasn't even a bad conviction - slap on the wrist.

I am not saying go out and smuggle or break the law by keeping an illegal critter, what I am saying, is what is here is here, what is in the market will remain in the market and will remain doing its rounds to end up in someone's collection at some point.

On another note, solutions to importing species, killing the "black trade" in local species, revenue generating ideas have all been brought to the attention of the powers that be by many serious avid collectors of various species - but for decades it has fallen on deaf ears - and what we have today is the result.

just a bit of perspective from what I have seen - dont shoot the messenger please!

Scorpion wrote
On another note, solutions to importing species, killing the "black trade" in local species, revenue generating ideas have all been brought to the attention of the powers that be by many serious avid collectors of various species - but for decades it has fallen on deaf ears - and what we have today is the result.

This is something I have been thinking about some on the same line what scorpion said. But with regards to over collecting of our local species

Instead of Natcon trying to stop it why don’t they get some brains and think abit
If they take say 5 breeders and give them permits to breed our local species of baboon spiders
then ship the slings off to the EU and the USA this why they will flood the market overseas and stop people from collecting them here in SA and this way natcon can get some extra bucks from this to help get an army to stop the rhinos from getting killed!


If natcon also just relax a bit and get some more brains
If they will just give us permits to keep like OBTs and other local species
Just as you Rica your phone with your ID and Address so they know where to find you if you do rob a bank and your phone was used in it.

So why don’t they just give a permit even if you have to pay R500 to get a permit so be it and this why Natcon will know who has what and where you live
Also in this since it will give them the right to walk onto your property at any given time and if you got any other species of baboon spider then they can remove your collection or fine or send you to jail.



Any way this will never happen all the god complexs in natcon are to busy writing stupid laws!



Please read the thread and see what has been said im sure it refurse to us and our site as I know we are the only site that has fights and can't talk like normal people!!
The protected baboon spider genera to avoid dealing with are

Posting PM's on the public forum is shameful :ohmy: tisk tisk tisk...

Rayman thanks for pointing out to Mona that she is indirectly supporting smuggling by owning and keeping exotic tarantulas which are illegal Seems like she still doesn't get it

After sleeping on it I still feel the same :silly: this law will probably never get passed. And if by some miracle it does, it will be very interesting to see how NatCon plans on implementing and enforcing it.

+1 to Crystal, Scorpion and Cascade for seeing the bigger picture and being able to have a decent discussion about a sensitive subject

cascade wrote:

This is something I have been thinking about some on the same line what scorpion said. But with regards to over collecting of our local species

Instead of Natcon trying to stop it why don’t they get some brains and think abit
If they take say 5 breeders and give them permits to breed our local species of baboon spiders
then ship the slings off to the EU and the USA this why they will flood the market overseas and stop people from collecting them here in SA and this way natcon can get some extra bucks from this to help get an army to stop the rhinos from getting killed!


If natcon also just relax a bit and get some more brains
If they will just give us permits to keep like OBTs and other local species
Just as you Rica your phone with your ID and Address so they know where to find you if you do rob a bank and your phone was used in it.

So why don’t they just give a permit even if you have to pay R500 to get a permit so be it and this why Natcon will know who has what and where you live
Also in this since it will give them the right to walk onto your property at any given time and if you got any other species of baboon spider then they can remove your collection or fine or send you to jail.



Any way this will never happen all the god complexs in natcon are to busy writing stupid laws!



Take a gander at this thread on SAreptile
The protected baboon spider genera to avoid dealing with are

Great ideas. These will definately work. In a perfect world.

On your first point about flooding the market.
Great in theory, but some of the species that are sought after like I.mira or C.paulseni are very difficult to find and breed. It will take years to get enough stock in SA to export these out and flood the market. The spiders left in the wild of these should be left right where they are IMO.
Also they won't be getting too much revenue from this, because why pay lots for legal spiders, when you can buy spiders on the black market for much cheaper and make more profit on them?

Second point regarding the permits for P.murinus.
Not a good idea. P.murinus are a potentially a very invasive species. All we need is something like Stalker's situation (Sorry to pick on you, I know it was an accident, but thats why its better if they are illegal) where P.murinus escape accidentally and potentially take over an area. They are a very aggressive species that grow much faster than our local species and WILL wipe them out if an eggcase were to be released.

Unfortunately a lot of tarantula keepers are in it for the money, so there will always be the greedy individuals messing up the system for financial gain. So please just leave locals (And other protected species like P.murinus) where they are. They will always be illegal so stop complaining about it. They were made illegal for good reason.

With regards to the stupid people at NatCon. There are tons of people there that (no offence) are much more intelligent that any of us here on this site. They might not always be the people in the important positions, but just a bit of respect please.

Then, just make sure when you quote other sites that you have their permission. Don't want to get the site into trouble for using their information without permission.

Then lastly. I feel very sorry for this topic. The poor thing has been beaten to death atleast 50 times on this site. Lets just leave it in peace now. Im starting to feel sorry for it.